Today marked our second session with transformational architect Ron Martoia as he followed up last week's session on "Bewildering Excitement" with the challenge of dealing with lostness. He often used the term "remap", and I think that's a great place to start our discussion this week, or rather continue the discussion from today.
What are you seeing as some of the challenges for you personally as you're working toward remapping an environment different from what we all currently experience as CrossPointe?
What are you seeing as some of the remapping challenges for us as a group?
Honest discussion encouraged...really!
Peace!
19 comments:
Well, I hate to say anything negative about church or the way things are being done, because I know that everyone involved is working hard and doing their best, especially while Pastor Dave is gone. However, I feel like church lately has turned into a business meeting. This morning was - if you went to the learning module - two solid hours of discussing our church move. I was out of town last week, but it sounds like that was the subject then as well. Are we shifting our focus from God to moving?
It's important that as a church we are in the right place mentally before we move physically, but if we spend the next two months debating the details when we're supposed to be worshipping, learning and growing personally, we might not have a church left to move.
This is not a personal attack on anyone, and I appreciate the hard work that goes into every Sunday morning service.
I was very jazzed to see answers to Tim's questions materialize right before my eyes immediately after the Gathering today! We had lunch with 2 families we don't usually hang out with, or know well, and they blew me away with their enthusiasm and excitement! They were brimming with questions and great ideas for getting involved!
Both had young children and had the idea to host a MOPS (Mothers of Pre-Schoolers) group at one of their houses. That's something they'd like to be involved in anyway, but would serve the dual purpose of providing something other parents in the area might be needing as well.
Another idea was hosting game nights. Whether it's Sequence, or Bunco, or some of the more challenging and strategic warfare type board games, just creating opportunities for folks to get together and have fun.
I LOVE it when we start to take our focus off the challenges and negatives, and start revelling in the many opportunities God's revealing!! Navel-gazing versus God-gazing! :-)
It was a GREAT lunch!
Anonymous,
I'm going to be blunt in love here. I appreciate your concerns and passion. However, if you are so passionate about your convictions, why hide?
The past couple of weeks have been intended to serve two purposes. First to be able to allow people to go through a process of spiritual and mental preparation for the immense challenge before us. Second, to try out new ideas such as real time webcast as part of the worship experience. I'm sorry that you feel this is not "church-like". However, it is something that Pastor Dave felt was important in the long term vision of things.
Question: if you weren't challenged personally today when so many others have expressed that they were, why is that? This is not an attack on you personally, but rather a challenge to you to express exactly WHY you feel the way you do so that some common ground can be reached.
I would also lovingly encourage you to take your concerns offline to Pastor Dave and the Session. They will be more than happy to give you some feedback.
I appreciate your honesty and your personal frustration. However, I also believe this is something that can be easily resolved through communication with the leadership team.
Again, thank you for your honest comments.
Oh, I almost forgot. I should make a shameless plug for the all praise, all worship service next Sunday!
I LOVE MOPS!!! It is a great organization with amazing leadership!
"Business meeting" gave me a funny mental image. Few I've been to are like what we did Sunday morning. I actually love it that we are doing Sunday AM in dialogue. (Unlike the proclaimational approach from the pulpit I grew up with.)
I have to agree on the "hiding" thing. Anon, you lose credibility by not signing your comments. (Becomes sniping from bushes rather than honest comments from someone we know and love when you are hidden.) You can (and should) decloak.
Wow. I don't usually post on the blog and missed last Sunday, but I found this Sunday's module to be very effective. Openly addressing fears, concerns and attitudes about the move. I didn't find it to be a business meeting- if it were I would have gotten verbally asaulted at least once.
To address anonymous- I don't think there is a partner at CrossPointe that doesn't have some inkling of fear deep within them that what we love about CrossPointe is about to change. If we grow- will I get lost? is probably something we've all thought about as being "I" centered instead of Christ centered is second nature to us all.
But over the past weeks as we've discussed the demise of the "Church" across our nation, and we hear statistics of 110,000 churches closing in the US and as we think about what an impact being a partner at CrossPointe has had on our personal life- how can we not feel a duty to take ourselves from our comfort zone and offer up that gift to a growing community?
Being in an industry that is focused on demographics and growth I can also say that our current location is what we would call stagnant. That also means that open land to build a bldg on is sparse because- well it's already built out from a real estate perspective. My point here is not to attack anonymous but to point out that we as a church have become stagnant on some level as well. Stagnant is comfortable- but with great risk comes great reward. The leadership of CrossPointe is taking a HUGE risk here (certainly bigger than you or I) and I trust our leaders. Let's get behind them and Live Out our duty to be the Church that just embraces the community.
How awesome would it be if in five years we looked back and thought of ourselves as the "Little Churth that Could?"
Also, where do I sign up for MOPS?
Anonymous,
Thank you so much for your post. I love the fact that this forum allows people the opportunity to voice their opinions in a very safe way. Thank you also for noticing the hard work that goes into each week’s Gathering. One of the things that has always amazed and impressed me about Crosspointe is how hard people are willing to work toward excellence for the glory of God. We have amazingly talented people who are willing to sacrifice time, energy, money, and talents each week to provide others with unique and engaging experiences designed to help people move toward loving God, loving others and living out loud.
Yeah, these past two weeks have felt less like “church” and more like business meetings. However, I don’t think that has diminished their impact at all. The leadership team has been moving towards this format for a while now. We have slowly been integrating various facets of what is being called “church 2.0”. You have probably noticed it and not realized the direction it was taking. First, we had the second screen in the auditorium. Then, we had questions that you could text your answer in with. Then, we had the polling devices. Slowly, we have been moving to a place where church was less a lecture, and more a discussion. Why? I think in part, to help people get things off their chest. Partly to challenge each other with new ideas and takes on the Biblical text. Finally, I think in part to help spur on further discussion. Let’s face it, there were very few people walking out of the Gathering this week not discussing what had just taken place. Is this different? Sure. However, isn’t that one of the great things about Crosspointe? We are willing to try new and different things.
However, this is not really that far removed from how church services originally took place. According to Rob Bell, in the first century Jewish communities (of which Jesus was a part)
“…most people knew the text by heart. When someone got up to teach or share insight, chances are everybody already knew the text that person was talking on and already had their own opinions on it. You saw yourself and those around you as taking part in a huge discussion that has gone on for thousands of years.” (I highly recommend reading “Velvet Elvis” by Bell for more insights into this and other areas).
So, why are we talking so much about the move? Simple. It is less than 2 months away. We don’t have much time until it takes place, and not everyone is on board with it all. We need to have everyone engaged and owning this vision if we are going to make it happen. Perhaps you are fully on board, and ready to do your part. Sadly, not everyone else is there. We need to give an environment for people to voice their concerns (like you did on this blog) and be able to get answers (again, hopefully like you are getting here). The leadership team is not here to give the church their “marching orders.” We are trying our best to articulate the vision we believe God has given to Pastor Dave, and give everyone the opportunity to partner with us and be a part of this journey with us. It is one thing to say “I am a part of Crosspointe so I am going to do this thing with them.” It is another thing entirely to say, “I am a part of Crosspointe, and I believe in the mission and vision of this community, and I am willing to make changes and let go of my raft to help us all make this vision come to life.”
In regards to your concerns about “worshipping, learning and growing personally,” I am not entirely sure what you mean.
We still had a time of worship (kudos to the band for this week’s job….you guys rocked!). Ron showed Biblical examples of God taking people through the wilderness experience. Ron and Tim both gave us practical applications for the Biblical concepts we discussed. How is that much different than any other week? Was the format a little different? Sure. However, remember what Ron said about the only thing that will survive? Your relationship with God. While Crosspointe does provide opportunities for corporate worship, much more so, we all need to have a posture of worship. Please understand, that is not a personal attack on you, rather a challenge for us all. Also, as Tim mentioned, we are having an all-worship Gathering next Sunday. And, after Dave returns from his trip to Uganda, he will finish up the Live Out|Invite In series with the “Invite In” part. You will not want to miss that.
I do hope this has helped you in your understanding of this week’s Gathering’s place in the overall scheme of Crosspointe’s journey. I do hope you will respond with any other insights or questions you might have. Also, please feel free to ask me any questions you want. I may not have all the answers you are looking for, but I am more than willing to help you find them. Thank you again for your time and thoughts.
David
I really appreciate the input everyone is providing for this thread, and even though it might not seem like it, a beautiful thing is happening. The vision is no longer owned and articulated by just the staff. Instead, we are all gradually beginning to articulate this amazing, crazy, scary, exciting, uncertain, beautiful vision in our own words. Isn't that cool?!?!?!? I've been on staff at other churches who could only dream this day would come. Now we are at that point and it will only grow from here.
The vision has started to become viral; more easily transmitted. The easier the transmission, the quicker the spread. You are now all carriers of the CrossPointe contagion and it's great! We get to infect the 5 mile radius around Killian with a counter cultural worldview of leaving, listening, living among, and loving without strings.
It's scary and sublime all at once. All we have to do is to continue to communicate vision, and stay knit together in prayer and love. God will take care of the rest.
When I made the original comment, I wasn't trying to create division or hostility. I kept myself anonymous because I am so involved at Crosspointe (yes, in leadership) and love everyone so much, I didn't want it to be personal. I also didn't want to "take my concerns offline" to the pastor and the session because then it would be one person complaining and if anyone else agreed, they might not speak up. Isn't that what this blog is for? Honest open discussion, or only open discussion that is happy and positive?
By "business meeting" I don't mean that the format was bad - I love the interaction between leaders and congregation, and the interaction at each table. I meant more that there seemed to be more discussion about semantics of our situation than about God. Yes, his name was thrown around a lot, and I really do believe that all who spoke had good things to say (in fact, I have a great deal of respect for all who spoke), but maybe there is a better place for this type of discussion than our time that is set aside for growing spiritually and worship. You can go out looking for lost sheep, but don't let the ones you already have get lost in the process.
I also wasn't saying that it was necessarily wrong to discuss the move - I just wanted to make sure it wasn't the planned sermon topic from now until we move. If we were to discuss it every Sunday morning, then we might get so focused on planning the details that we forget to stop and listen - to God. Remember Him?
The same points were made and discussed in the learning module and in the service. Why not have a learning module focused on this and invite all to share at that time? Or if that isn't possible, have a potluck lunch and invite everyone to stay and debate/discuss to their hearts' content.
The worship team is amazing and I've complimented them personally many times in the past because I do appreciate what they do. I'm really looking forward to next week's all-worship format.
I just want to reiterate that my original comment was written with the best of intentions and that all of you who have posted know me as a friend or acquaintance. My purpose here is not to criticize anyone, but to merely do my part to raise a question instead of going with the flow.
Gang great comments and processing, so glad this has been a great experience not only of new technology but more importantly of the content and material we are processing these days.
As for Anonymous I feel a need to make a comment. In you last post you mentioned the blog as a place for open honest discussion. So let's be honest, IF you are a leader, IF you are open and honest then pot shots taken from the bushes is simply disingenuous. Nehemiah faced this exact issue in Nehemiah chapter 6. When someone came to him with anonymous opinions he dismissed it in light of the need to keep focused and moving the mission forward. Anonymous if you are in leadership and if you really believe and love everyone so much then cloaking identity isn't building community. All comments have context. For a church to entertain anonymous comments with no context is to waste energy according the Nehemiah
I am afraid I also need to challenge your sacred secular worldview. It is always disappointing to me for someone who is a Christian and leader to make distinctions between conversations about God, business meetings, semantics, topics of sermonizing etc....as if some are sacred and some are secular. This is precisely the very separational notion we need to deconstruct and discard. David was clear in the Psalms the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. That means everything is spiritual everything we are about is kingdom. Business meetings, moving details, semantics are ALL kingdom work, all church work all important work for a move. If you are a leader then these are things I know you know. Your phrase to "stop and listen to God, remember Him?" is unnecessary and seriously undermines the compassion you so ardently claim fuels your comments. Are you really serious that people are forgetting to listen to God or have forgotten who he is? The last two weeks conversations have been about giving people the opportunity to voice what they hear God saying.
As a parting observation I really can't imagine Jesus passing anonymous notes to the disciples to give them feedback, I can't imagine anonymous feedback to you in your place of employment about your performance would be much heeded and I can't imagine we want to create a Crosspointe culture where we validate this sort of communication model. It isn't healthy in any context.
That said let me note a conversation I had with a large church staff yesterday. 100LH is a rule we have put in place here. A commitment to each other to be 100% Lovingly Honest. All three components are key for a healthy relational environment. Anonymous you are trying to convince us of the loving part with your words but your anonymity falls far short of the honest part.
Can't wait to see how the next weeks go Gang thanks for letting me be a part of it.
And Anonymous I am more than willing to continue this conversation offline if you would like.
I really appreciate everyone's comments on this. However, if I may, I'd like to turn our attention back to the original question.
What are you seeing as some of the challenges for you personally as you're working toward remapping an environment different from what we all currently experience as CrossPointe?
What are you seeing as some of the remapping challenges for us as a group?
Come on in, the water's fine!
Remapping challenges - personally, it's kind of like what was said Sunday morning - getting used to a different way of doing things and being OK with the loss of security that a permanent space like we have provides.
As a group, I think the challenges are greater because everyone has his own ideas of what church should be exactly, and the group may be onboard for 95% of what we're going to do, but that last 5% can make or break us, as a group. It includes the little details like where the donut table will be or how loud the band will be or maybe what shape the chairs will be set out in. Sometimes it seems the bigger issues, which everyone is focused on and in agreement on, aren't the stumbling blocks. So do I think that Crosspointe will be torn apart by these details? No, but as a group, I think we need to keep in mind the importance of the big picture and treat each other with respect, patience, kindness - especially when we are in disagreement over details.
Another thing I fear, as a group and personally, is the economic differences in our group being brought to light. Unless I marry rich, I won't ever be able to live in Austin Ranch, Castle Hills or anywhere around there, and I've heard this echoed by several others. Those of us in this situation need to realize how jealousy, greed, and resentment can take hold and interfere. A person who lives in a mansion on a golf course needs God's love and compassion just as much as those of us struggling to pay the bills. I say this also because I have already felt the jealousy, seeing a way of life I will probably never have. Those on the other side of the fence need to be equally as careful to be sensitive and open to these concerns.
A fellow Cobalter said one night a while back that Satan will do what he can to divide us as we go through this process. I think it is important that as a group, we keep this in mind and move forward prayerfully.
Wow Christina, I hadn't thought about the lens of the economic factor. John and I would both have to marry rich, but then we would have to leave Crosspointe and find some whole polygamist cult thing. (smile)
I think you are right about the 5% thing. I'm not sure I've ever heard it so well put.
Can I address one really important challenge we parents face. It is the impact that leaving has on our children. Typically, moving is hard on kids, especially if they have been in a place long enough to develop memories. Half of the kids at Crosspointe have gone to church at 2408 E. Trinity Mills Rd. their whole lives.
To prepare our Kidspointe Kids, we chose the story of Joshua to cover in KIDMO for the last five weeks. It was called "Imagine" and used the image of a hot air balloon to discuss how God can see the big picture. With God's help Joshua and the children of Israel left a stagnant, dry place to a land overflowing...
I think we need to be asking all our kids questions about how they feel about the move and if they understand why it is important. I think we need to be sharing with them the mission and vision in a way they understand. Maybe the Joshua story will help you do that. By teaching them you may find yourself internalizing it more as well.
What excites me about being a mobile church is our children will learn God moves people to do strange things for him. They can feel like the Children of Israel did and experience how church is not a building; church is a community that happens as we worship God together and live out our lives among people who may not know him.
Now, back to my personal challenge. My daughter, and you can guess which one, has had very strong, very negative comments about the move ever since David and I introduced the topic to her, and she is still not ready to budge. Your prayers and positive excitement may be just what she needs to realize this is a God thing.
Let me know how your kids are doing with it! And in case you are wondering, our Kidspointe space at Killian Middle School is incredible. It is spacious, clean and inviting. Your kids will LOVE it!
I had a chat tonight with another Crosspointe person who has been following the discussion on the blog. The person was amazed to find that I am "anonymous" and gave a few points that maybe I should clarify, even though the discussion has moved on and I really was planning on just letting this discussion end.
First, when I said I am "involved in leadership" I didn't mean that I am an elder. I mean that I help lead a group and am very involved in other ways. Lots of people have done lots of work to get this move to happen, and I have only been involved minimally with that.
Second, I am not the anonymous poster from last week who was very critical of the move. Because that person posted anonymously with much more controversial subject matter, I had no idea that I would get attacked as I feel I have been. I am fully onboard with the move and was merely commenting that I felt like with the learning module and the gathering both focused on details of the move, I didn't feel like I even went to church, but more like a meeting. And I wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to be like that for the next two months. It was just a comment about what I thought, which was what was asked for.
Now: The End. No more discussion on this.
Continue discussing the original question, because the comments on that have been good.
Great discussion all! Just a few thoughts.
Anonymous, I don't think you've been attacked at all. Everyone has, I think spoken truth in love. IF you are part of the LLC and IF you love people, and IF you care about CrossPointe as a body, drive by anonymous posting is not a way to make any sort of reasoned critique and expect to be taken seriously. As Ron mentioned previously, this is a practice that would not be viewed favorably within the secular workplace, so it really shouldn't be allowed in the confines of Christ's church. If you feel that is an attack, I am TRULY sorry. However, I stand by my statement.
The above is going to be the last comment I make upon your critique, because I just don't think there's really any benefit in continuing in this forum. I'll be happy to continue the conversation offline if you like.
Now, some really great stuff following that, and I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to really touch on the great point that Christina made.
I'll be the first to admit that I fall in the group of those who do not live in the Castle Hills / Austin Ranch area and may likely never afford to do so. I mean, it's not like I chose to move into ministry for the money. :) However, I'm OK with that. Christy and I like being near the lake, and our lifestyles / schedules don't really permit for the kind of time needed to maintain houses that big. The ultimate question, I think, is "How do we effectively engage in relationship with a community in which we do not live and not seem to have ulterior motives?" It's an excellent question and one that the Knights and I were discussing yesterday.
I don't think that there's truly a clear cut answer, but I will share with you what I'm coming to after wrestling with this a bit last night. If we are truly followers of Christ and we truly are infused by His transformative power as evidenced by the Holy Spirit, shouldn't we have a compassion for people whereever they are (and this is something Christina articulated beautifully)? If, as the apostle Paul writes, "the love of Christ compels us", shouldn't we be fired up about moving and engaging people whether we're in a school near Castle Hills, a tent in Oak Cliff, or the lastest "Six Flags Over Jesus" in McKinney? Shouldn't we all (myself included) be burning with a deep, deep desire to puruse God as He leads us on this journey of connection with new people and a deeper connection with Him?
That being said, I would suggest that part of our remapping process literally involves us no longer limiting our passion to reach people to the immediate geographic area in which we live. If anything, that's too small and God's too big.
I've rambled FAR too long on this one, so I'll share some of my other thoughts later. :)
I saw an ad today in the DFW Quick that said something like...
a dream home...wonderful kids...the ideal job....ABSOLUTE EMPTINESS.
That emotion cuts across economic, geographic and any other boundary you would want to create to set and subset people.
We all want to be loved and to feel like we have purpose (Especially me.)
Maybe one of the huge advantages we have in ministering without the overhead of a space over this next year is one of focus. Without walls, we have to focus on people. Our own and everyone else we run into simply by being there.
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